The Double Reeds of Indiana:
FOX Bassoons
by Nora Post
Introduction:
During the spring of 1992 I had the opportunity to visit the FOX factory for the first time. Located in South Whitley, Indiana, FOX manufactures about twelve hundred bassoons a year; my tour through building after building of wood storage underscored the very impressive size of the FOX operation. I was immediately convinced, for example, that the machinery, drills and reamers needed for contrabassoon production should be reclassified as lethal weapons!Hailing from the urban jungle as I do, one of the most startling things I saw during my visit was a place in South Whitley called Whitley Feeds. They had flats of flowers for sale right out on Main Street, and they did not take them in at night. I woke up early Sunday morning and went for a walk to see if any of the flowers were still there. Not one flower seemed to be missing. To me, that was almost as miraculous as making twelve-hundred bassoons a year!
In addition to Alan FOX, the personalities in this interview include several others who are also intensely involved in bassoon production and design: Dominic Devito, Chip owen, and Mike Trentacosti. I am especially grateful for the hospitality and assistance of so many of my friends at FOX in helping to make my trip and the interview-as well as an oboe interview which will appear in a subsequent issue-a real pleasure for me. Spring had just arrived and, as we looked out the windows of the FOX plant, Indiana looked so very beautiful. We were appropriately surrounded by Indiana maple trees, and I could not have imagined a more perfect setting for a bassoon interview.
Nora Post Interview with Alan Fox
11 May 1992
South Whitley, IndianaPOST: I'd like to begin by asking a few questions about the history of the company. Is it correct that the company was started in 1949 by your father?
FOX: Yes. My dad, Hugo FOX, started the company after he retired from the Chicago Symphony orchestra. He was the principal bassoonist there for 27 years.
POST: How did your father get interested in making bassoons?
FOX: He was a very handy guy. He used to do electrical wiring, and built a lot of things as a hobby. Having to live with the eccentricities of his instrument as a player, he naturally became involved with the instrument. He just liked to tinker, and figured he could build a better bassoon than what he was playing.
POST: How did he come to South Whitley?
FOX: He was born near here. The building you are in at the moment is situated on the family farm.
POST: Earlier today I toured the famous chicken coop where this business began. How I big is the chicken coop?
FOX: It's about 1,500 square feet today. But it was maybe forty percent of that size when the business started. When I joined the business in 1960, we put the tuning room extension on the back of it. Then we remodeled the barn that was across the way. The barn served as the machine shop and body shop until 1974. The chicken coop served as the finishing department, tuning room, and contained the offices.
POST: I understand that you had someone who painted cars for a living doing the painting of bassoon bodies. Was he also in South Whitley?
FOX: Yes. He was in what is now our two story loft in town.
POST: From what I saw this morning, you have wood storage facilities all over town. I imagine that will never change.
FOX: That's true.
POST: Is it also true that the oboes were originally made in a converted grocery store in South Whitley?
FOX: Yes. That came about because we didn't have enough room in the chicken coop and the barn. We moved into the converted grocery store prior to the fire of 1974. Then, when we finished this building after the fire, we brought the oboe manufacturing out here. You see, with the bassoon, a lot of the key-making is done in people's homes in the community. We started out making oboes that way but, for two reasons, we couldn't get the quality control we wanted. First, we couldn't get precise enough parts, and second, we didn't have adequate control over teaching the key-mounters. So we put all the key- mounting here when we consolidated everything. Then in 1988, we doubled the size of the existing plant we're sitting in the new section.
POST: You said you began working here in 1960.
FOX: Right. My background was in chemical engineering. I fought music in general as a kid- successfully, I might add! Because of that, I'm the only non- musical member of my family. My strengths are really in my thinking processes.
POST: In Europe, manufacturers argue about whether you have to be a player to make a decent instrument. Most say absolutely not- with the exception of the very last finishing stages when the instrument is actually played. Would you agree with that?
FOX: Yes.
POST: To backtrack for just one moment, how did you actually get started in the bassoon business?
FOX: I was with a firm that was building oil refineries and chemical plants. I had just finished my third year when my dad's health failed. The family finances were all tied up with the bassoon business, and something had to be done. So I gave up my career and took it over.
POST: Have you ever regretted it?
FOX: oh, about once a week!
POST: Interesting comparisons come to mind about some of the French oboe makers which are also family owned businesses-Fossati, Loree and Rigoutat, for example. What do you think the advantages or disadvantages of being a family business are? Also, do you think that bigger companies—like Yamaha or Boosey & Hawkes—have any advantages over you?
FOX: The whole business is full of advantages and disadvantages. The long term strength of a company is usually reflected in the strength of its personnel. We've been very fortunate and we have a number of people with strong technical capabilities. The larger companies generally have stronger marketing capabilities, but they also have a greater burden to coordinate and finance dealers. As competitors, Boosey & Hawkes, Yamaha, Puchner and Heckel all have advantages that contribute to their being successful businesses, as do we. Fortunately, the market has been large enough and receptive enough that we can all coexist, along with the smaller firms.
POST: How many bassoon makers are there in the world right now?
FOX: I count twenty-one. The Germans have most of the known makers, and the Italians have at least one. There are two in China, one in Japan, at least one in Czechoslovakia, and one in Russia.
POST: Which ones are the closest to you in terms of size and production capabilities?
FOX: In size of the facilities, Schreiber is the closest to us, though I don't actually know how many instruments they are making. In terms of quality level, I think Heckel is probably the closest to us, although several others are quite respectable.
POST: You mentioned that you are making about twelve-hundred bassoons a year. Can you give me the breakdown of models?
FOX: We make a maximum of one-hundred fifty to two-hundred professional instruments a year; the rest are the Renard models. of course, remember that our definition of a mid-priced instrument like the Renard is a very sophisticated animal. You saw the tuning processes; there is 100% quality control in everything that goes out of here.
POST: I wanted to ask you about a comment by Bernard Garfield in the Philadelphia orchestra. He says that FOX will become the dominant bassoon in the world because more and more young bassoonists are dissatisfied with German instruments. He thinks this will happen within twenty years. Do you you agree or disagree with his comment and his timetable?
FOX: Well, it's a very flattering remark. Twenty years can be a long time, but there are some trends that are favoring us right now, and I hope they continue. on the other hand, we have some competitors who may have some influence on the situation, so we will have to wait and see.
POST: I'd like to ask you some questions about materials. Let's start with your writings on the subject, in which you describe five different types of maple. We've seen a lot of wood today. Are all five types in current use here?
FOX: Yes.
POST: I wonder if you have any personal favorites. If you were giving a bassoon to a nephew or a daughter, what would you want to give them? I don't necessarily mean what is the very best or the most expensive, but is there any wood with which you have a special affinity?
FOX: I like the sound of the black maple the best. It has an enchanting quality when it projects through the audience. The Yugoslavian mountain maple is by far the most versatile of the woods we use. If someone were to ask me what they should make their instrument out of today, I would lean in the direction of the Yugoslavian mountain maple. But the black maple has a special charm-with the Yugoslavian mountain maple, it depends more on the player. In the last year or two, we've made the Renard Model 220 in the black maple. We've had an overwhelming response. However, I don't think the black maple is so suitable for the the professional instrument because of its weight- it's too heavy. Also, I think flexibility is the single most important factor for the professional instruments, and the mountain maple and the red maple are both more flexible than the black maple.
POST: Now, a word about our visit to the paint shop. Can you explain a bit about the different kinds of finishes you use? Are they similar for most instruments?
FOX: We do two distinctly different kinds of finishes. The first is acrylic enamel, which we've used for over twenty years; it is a very durable, high gloss finish. The other finish we use is the natural oil varnish. For professional instruments, the oil varnish is superior. It's a better looking finish and it also contributes to the resistance-and therefore the tone quality of the instrument.
POST: What would happen if you played a bassoon with no finish at all?
FOX: Well, it would depend on what kind of wood you made it out of, but it probably wouldn't make an enormous difference.
POST: Can you tell me about the plastics you use for the Renard bassoons?
FOX: We've used polypropylene plastics for the bassoon since 1961. It has the weakness of being a little too heavy, but it does produce a flexible bassoon. The biggest problem we've had with the plastic bassoons is the psychological, not the playing aspect of it. For some people- but not everybody-the plastic bassoon will deliver at a very high artistic level. There are a number of players over the years who have used plastic bassoons primarily for outdoor concerts and summer work, and they've used them successfully. There are instances where our plastic bassoons have outperformed some very expensive wooden bassoons in comparison tests.
POST: Were you the first person to make a plastic bassoon?
FOX: I don't think so. I heard a story-I don't know if it's true-that Heckel made one during World War 11 for Rommel's band in Africa. Lin on also had a plastic bassoon on the market before we marketed ours. My dad played a concert on a FOX Lucite prototype bassoon in 1956' But it wasn't until 1961 that we were ready to market a plastic bassoon.
POST: What did it take to convince people to play a bassoon that wasn't wood, as well as to create a demand for that instrument?
FOX: It was a major challenge but, at the time, the European makers weren't satisfying the needs of the American market. We were able to produce the plastic bassoon at moderate prices. That alone attracted a great deal of interest, especially among educators. There's been a broad base of acceptance of plastic for school use, but a very narrow base of acceptance among serious players. In Europe, there has been absolutely no acceptance by professional players, and a very narrow acceptance by schools. In Australia and in the Far East, there is wider acceptance of plastic instruments than in Europe. Europe is very closely tied to the older traditions of instrument making, and plastic is certainly not that tradition!
POST: Yes. I remember in the panel discussion we did with oboe manufacturers at the 1991 IDRS, Dominic Devito from FOX and I brought up the subject of plastic oboes. I asked the European makers what they thought since, with the exception of Loree, no one has made a plastic oboe. Philippe Rigoutat said there will never be a plastic oboe in Europe. It's just too far from what a European player would find acceptable.
FOX: I think the Europeans are the most conservative in terms of materials.
POST: Comparing plastic to wood, how stable do you find the plastic to be?
FOX: The plastic is very stable, though it expands and contracts with temperature changes more than wood; wood expands and contracts more with humidity changes. Depending on where you are playing, you usually have more control over temperature than over humidity. From that point of view, plastic is very stable. on the other hand, if you leave a plastic bassoon sitting overnight in a car in Minneapolis during the winter, you're going to have a tough time using it until it warms up to room temperature!
POST: In terms of problems you've had with materials, are there certain kinds of problems that you associate with wood, and others associated with plastic?
FOX: Yes. The biggest problem with plastic is the machinability of the material. You have to have tools that will handle the plastic you've chosen. Some plastics are easier than others, and each is a special case. Repair is also a problem because, in the case of polypropylene, you can't bond anything to it. Generally, if a part is broken, you have to replace it instead of repair it. There are exceptions, of course.
POST: So, in that sense, you have more options with wood.
FOX: That's true.
POST: one person who has researched wall material and its effect on tone quality was Arthur Benade. He said that wall material-i.e. what an instrument is made of-makes less than a two percent detectable difference to professional musicians. Do you agree or disagree with him?
FOX: I disagree. In our testing over the years, we have found noticeable differences in the behavior of the material contributing to tone quality and flexibility. If that were not true, we wouldn't need five different types of maple! I think that what it comes down to is Benade's idea of two percent. Two percent to a performing musician is a lot; two percent to a theoretical physicist is not very much! Art and I used to have a lot of friendly arguments over things like this . . .
POST: Going back to wood for a minute . . . I have seen so much wood this morning. Most of it is maple, and it's simply amazing. Could you comment a bit on how you age your wood? I remember reading something about kiln drying your wood at 140 degrees.
FOX: The 222 that we make for the domestic market is the only model left where the wood is kiln dried. The kiln drying of the wood tends to stabilize it, though at the expense of resonance; 222 is designed primarily to serve school markets. Durability, stability and ruggedness are major criteria for school use. When you get into more sophisticated uses of the instrument, then you need more sophisticated materials. one of the first things you want to do then is to get rid of the inflexibility of sugar maple.
POST: Could you describe the different buildings for wood storage?
FOX: The first building is the open air storage, which is where the wet wood arrives. once the moisture content drops to fifteen percent we move it into one of four locations at ground level storage. We store it there until the moisture content reaches twelve to thirteen percent. Then we move it into a loft and dry it down as close to six percent as we can get it. Some years we can't get it to six percent. During those wet years, we use the kiln at one- hundred degrees to take that last one or two percent out.
POST: How long does all this take?
FOX: You can get it down to six percent in about five years, though six to seven years is better. We plan everything for ten years, and hope that the end result will be somewhere between six and ten years.
POST: I'd like to ask you some questions about all the different models of bassoons you make. Do you still consider Heckel your model? I realize that Heckel was certainly the model for your early bassoon designs.
FOX: First of all, what do mean by Heckel?
POST: Good question. You had better answer that one!
FOX: of course, Heckel bassoons have been a world standard, and for any maker not to recognize them would be foolish. The concept of sound that they produce is certainly desirable, although there is a wide variety of Heckel sounds. I think there is a misconception among players that Heckel stands for a single concept of sound. The truth of the matter is that the Heckel bassoon has been evolving over the span of my life-and much longer than that, of course. So, a lot depends on what time frame you choose an instrument from, as well as which instrument you choose.
POST: So are you are saying that to pick a so-called Heckel model is really too abstract?
FOX: Right. It's not that simple.
POST: Have there been other manufacturers who have also had a positive influence on your own ideas?
FOX: Some of the early Mollenhauer instruments were commendable.
POST: Anyone specifically for the contrabassoon?
FOX: Heckel and Mollenhauer again.
POST: Bassoon mavens and bassoon repair people tell me that your Model 201 tends to please the people who are looking for the sound of a pre-war Heckel.
FOX: Well, pre-war Heckels go beck to 1331. My father preferred the five thousand series Heckels; our oldest designs were the long bore instruments my father designed. our long bore models, which are Models I and 11 and all of the Renard models, are based on the five-thousand series. We started making short bore bassoons in 1967. The 201, its counterpart the 101, and the 201D (which is popular in Europe) are based essentially on a short bore seven thousand series Heckel design which we modified. At first, the long bore players thought that the short bore instruments were controversial, but they became the standard. Right now we're going through the same type of evolution in prayers' testes. The short bore instruments have been the standard, but now they are being supplanted by the thick wall models. But none of these instruments are pure copies, because we have tried to understand the products we are designing, as well as to add minor modifications that make them more comfortable for modern American use. In fact, when we build instruments for Europe, we have to modify them back in the original Heckel direction and change their performance characteristics a little bit.
POST: What's the philosophy behind that the thick walled design?
FOX: By making the wall section thicker it lengthens the tone holes. That would make a flatter horn, but then the tone holes are opened up. I wouldn't use projection as the sole definition because it is possible to make other designs project using different reeds and bocals. But the natural tendencies of the 601 and 660 are to be very powerful instruments. The 660 fits the higher pitch played in Germany, in Vienna, as well as some of the higher orchestras in Japan.
POST: Are all the Renards long bore?
FOX: All of the Renards made for sale in the North American market are long bore; we build a short bore Renard for the European market.
POST: Why are the Renards for the American market all long bore?
FOX: Pitch is lower in the Uniter States, and the long bore design fits that market.
POST: Incidentally, what percentage of your production stays in North America?
FOX: Probably about seventy to seventy-five percent. over the years it has ranged anywhere from sixty-five to seventy-five percent.
POST: Is Europe your second best customer?
FOX: If you are talking about individual countries, Japan takes quite a few of our instruments. If you are talking markets, Europe would be the second largest market.
POST: Continuing to introduce new models presents challenges as well as problems. Let's say you bought an instrument and it turned out that five years later everyone decided it was a dog, you weren't happy with it, and you couldn't resell it. on the flip side, often a new model is even better and you want to buy one. If you introduce a new model, players are ready to shoot themselves because they've finally bought a new bassoon and then they're told three years later that there's a 601 or there's a 660- something even better than what they bought. What's your reaction?
FOX: The introduction of new models and design changes is met with both acclaim and derision. I think that in our case the number of models has stayed relatively constant and most of what we've done is to improve them. There is a case for not changing a design, but that would destroy the purpose for which we're here. So we have no alternative but to go ahead and improve if we cant.
POST: Along those lines, I'd like to ask you about bassoon players as personalities. If you look at the flute world, when someone comes out with a new head joint, for example, two thousand people at the flute convention descend like locusts to try it. oboe players are terribly conservative and I'm wondering how you find bassoon players to be.
FOX: oh heavens, they're always running to try something new, especially new bocals and shaper tips.
POST: Do you find a big difference between oboe players and bassoon players?
FOX: Yes. For example, if I go to a city and call three bassoon players and say let's try some instruments and get together and have a little beer and have a good time, within four or five hours twenty bassoonists will show up. If I do the same thing with a group of oboe players, I'm lucky to get the two people I called on the telephone.
POST: Comparing yourself to other bassoon makers in the world, what do you see as unique to the FOX bassoon?
FOX: What we've done the most successfully is to combine production with quality control.
TRENTACOSTI: We also listen to what people want thus we have a number of different models. Some of the European makers have one view in mind. That's what they make and that's what you get-take it or leave it. It's very hard to listen to everyone and come up with something that satisfies all, but I think we do that more than anyone else.
POST: How would you compare yourself to other makers in terms of the mechanics of the bassoon?
FOX: We've been going through a thirty year evolution and, at the moment, our mechanics are at the strongest level they have ever been. I think our oboes had a stronger starting point than the bassoon. Not the first dozen prototypes, but once we got into production.POST: Why?
FOX: Dominic Devito is one of our strongest mechanics, and he started building the oboe. The bassoons were initially built by inexperienced people, and it was not until the oboe was in production that we could spare Dominic and others to help with the bassoons.
TRENTACOSTI: We continually strive to improve our product. You saw some of our computerized equipment; it makes better parts which allow us to make better keys and so forth. You've seen a lot of our other equipment; we make our own tools and therefore we have control over our equipment.
POST: Let's talk about bocals for a moment.
DEVITo: We currently make bocals in four bore designs using either brass or nickel silver metals. We also offer each design in five lengths and can plate any bocal with silver or nickel. The C, CV, and CVX bocals represent our traditional designs, while the CVC contains our latest efforts-a slightly flatter third register and a little more control resistance. Although the CVC is designed for the 601 and 660 models, it also produces good results on the other bassoons. In general, the CVX and CVC bocals play well on the professional instruments, and the C and CV bocals are used on the student models.
TRENTACOSTI: Among a broad base of bassoonists, the CVX has gained a reputation as a high note bocal-with only about a third of the players using it as we originally intended, which was to play well in all ranges.
FOX: The people who use it as a high note bocal want to see it preserved as that-so we plan to continue to develop the CVX and preserve the present CVX as a high note bocal, using a different designation for it.
POST: How much does national style effect the player's preference for bocals?
FOX: I think that personal style has a bigger effect than the national style. However, the national style drastically effects the bend of the bocal which, in turn, effects the way it plays. Generally speaking, European players prefer to play standing with a neckstrap, and American players prefer to play sitting with a seatstrap. This changes the bend, as well as the playing characteristics of the crook. The ultimate challenge for a maker is to build an instrument with good intonation, high resonance and a beautiful tone quality all at once. In the early history of the FOX instrument, we had a reputation for a nice tone quality, but inadequate resonance. As we increased the resonance level, the tone quality became more difficult to achieve. In the last year or two, we've done more to strengthen the tone quality and also preserve the high resonance. The thick-walled models are an extension of this concept.
POST: Does that concept compare to anything else any other makers are doing right now?
FOX: There's a long-term trel power demanded by large concert halls and large orchestras. We are responding to that, although to get power plus tone quality at the same time is a high state of the art. Right now, a lot of those things are coming together for us. one of the reasons we are exciting the bassoon world right now is because we're learning how to do this.
POST: There is so much custom work on a bassoon. It's amazing. Sticking out of the top of every bassoon here is a computerized list of what it is going to have on it. The instrument goes through so many processes, but it's all so customized and specific at the same time. With your oboes, you've got a couple of models you just keep knocking out, but your bassoons are so different.
DEVITo: The reason we don't have as many oboe models as bassoon is that our oboe production is geared primarily for the United States market. If we were trying to reach all the markets of the world, we would need another three or four models. With the bassoon, we are pursuing markets all over the world.
POST: Marigaux oboes are making about twelve-hundred professional oboes a year right now-more professional oboes than anyone in the world. They have different mechanical systems for different markets, but the bore and tone hole design are the same on all twelve hundred horns. Yet, you have so many designs here. Do you think there is something inherently different about the bassoon and its players?
DEVITo: Bassoons have a lot of options, and players like it that way. I don't think we would need all those options for the oboe. Since the oboe mechanism is small and compact already, where would we put extra key work?
POST: A few questions about repair: do you offer a lot of follow-up repair on your bassoons?
FOX: We offer a lot of follow-up repair, but only a small percentage of the players take advantage of it.
DEVITo: We find that hard to understand. Classical music is much more popular in Europe than it is here.
POST: Don't you think that because the European countries are so much smaller, it's easier for a player simply to get on a train and go see the manufacturer in a pinch? The manufacturers are at least there. Just a few last questions: do you find the gap in international styles of bassoon playing widening or narrowing?
FOX: Narrowing.
POST: How do you find the state of bassoon repair in this country?
FOX: It's much higher in the United States than it is anywhere else in the world. I think the reason for that is that the manufacturers do the repairs in Europe. In recent years, we've assisted a number of bassoon repairmen in Europe with mechanical specifications. We've also had European repairmen come here, and we've tried to work together to raise repair standards.
POST: Would you say that's the case with oboe as well?
FOX: Probably, but since we don't market oboes abroad, I don't come into contact with as many oboe repairmen as bassoon repairmen.
DEVITo: I have seen oboes of some very famous European players, and I was just appalled at their condition. I know that there are places in the US-yourself included-where they could get the work done properly.
POST: I know of two excellent oboe repairmen in Europe. They are apparently booked years in advance!
FOX:to play somewhat more alike though they may insist that they are not! Certainly the traveling conductors are demanding more uniformity in bassoon sound.
POST: of the people who purchase one of your bassoons and go home on Cloud Nine even after writing a large check-what are the characteristics of your instruments that they say are so terrific?
FOX: Fullness of sound, and the flexibility of the sound. Intonation as well, though that has always been a strong suit with us.
TRENTACOSTI: Also, our newer instruments blend better with other wind instruments than they used to.
POST: Talking about instruments that blend well, I don't want to forget the contrabassoon. The grapevine has it that your contrabassoon is your greatest success-a real hit. How did it come about?
OWEN: We started building them in 1970, and finished the first one on the way to a convention! It took us another year and a half before we had a production instrument completed. I think part of our success with this instrument is the tone quality. We use a harder type of maple which generates a sound that penetrates through the orchestra effectively and maintains its own integrity. The audience The audience actually gets to hear the contra. Whereas the German contras typically get lost in the whole ensemble. The German instruments are usually made out of mountain maple, which is softer than the black maple we use.
Post: Have you ever made a contrabassoon out of plastic?
Owen: Plastic would be a very impractical material for a contrabassoon. It would be wildly expensive, and far more difficult to work with than wood. Because the plastic is too flexible, You would have a terrible problem with key work being out of adjustment. In addition, you would have a greater problem of dimensional stability due to the temperature difference between the floor-where the peg is sitting-and head-height.
Fox: The temperature gradient between the floor of a concert of a concert hall and the area where the player is actually blowing into the instrument has an effect on the playing characteristics of the contrabassoon. As you well know, it can get very hot onstage. With the heat at the top end of the contra, and the cold at the bottom end, you can have all sorts of problems.
Post: Do you have an idea how long it would take to make a contrabassoon in terms of hours?
Owen: About one hundred fifty hours per instrument. So, if one person were making everything-which never happens here-it would take about a month. We make thirty contrabassoons a year.
Post: How many do you think are made in the world in a year?
Fox: Less than sixty
Post: I can't believe it! So, thirty instruments is the lion's share of the world's production!
Fox: Yes, but you should realize that it's not the most hotly contested market-and the acoustical standards of acceptance tend to vary more for contras than for bassoons. We think of our contra as being on about the same quality level as our professional bassoons, but it comes off looking better by comparison with some of the competition.
Post: You're say there's less competition.
Devito: Yes. Also, contras traditionally have had a very dark, quiet sound. Conductors wanted the instrument in the background. But the contrabassoon is enjoying a resurgence, and players want an instrument that can be heard! we've come through with a horn that projects more.
Post: I have just one last question for you: what have been the most gratifying parts of the business for you?
Fox: Seeing the players use our bassoon at the major orchestral level is very gratifying for me. I like to see this happen though, as I said earlier, my motivation is not the music, it's solving the engineering problems. For me, the satisfaction is seeing the instruments being used after we have dealt with all the technical problems.
Devito: It's very gratifying to become accepted and recognized as one of the best. I think the gratification is very similar to being a musician receiving feedback about how well he played.
Post: Right. When you get a standing ovation, you definitely do not feel bad....even, I might add, if you didn't actually play that great!!!